Talk:Catalonia

Catalonia

Catalonia (Catalan: Catalunya, Occitan: Catalonha, Spanish:Cataluña) is a European country located in the western Mediterranean. Its legal status is the subject of a dispute between the Parliament of Catalonia, which on October 27, 2017 proclaimed the Catalan Republic, and the Kingdom of Spain, which considers it an autonomous community. It is located on the north-east coast of the Iberian Peninsula and borders the north with Andorra and France, to the west with Aragon, to the south with the Valencian Country and to the east with the Mediterranean Sea. Catalonia is the most extensive part of the historical and cultural territory of the Principality of Catalonia and the whole set of Catalan lands or the Catalan Countries. With an estimated 7,508,106 inhabitants in 2015, it groups 51.55% of the total population of the Catalan Countries. Montserrat-Alba (talk • contribs) 23:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Autosigned by SineBot--

This is the article that should be in the text introduction. NEUTRAL

Personally, as someone writing from Australia so neither Catalan nor Spanish, I think that this is so much better than the Spanish nationalist intro the article currently has.

I say change it! 49.183.27.126 (talk) 19:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Catalonia is an autonomous community, like any other, of Spain. No country or international organization considers Catalonia an independent country. Catalonia is an inalienable territory belonging to the Kingdom of Spain since the very formation of Spain as a nation-state.

It is correct to mention the political problems or independence movements that exist in part of Catalan society and politics, but the article must be neutral and consistent with reality, and the reality is that Catalonia is a region of Spain. Venezia Friulano (talk) 09:58, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Map

I've removed the alternative map from the infobox. There's zero need to treat Catalonia as if it were something special (it's not), let's stay neutral instead of appealing to separatists. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 02:10, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Jacobí: You can respond here instead of edit warring yourself. The way I see it, WP let the true edit warriors bully itself into treating Catalonia in a special manner in 2016. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

MR KEBAB, the "war map" of 2016 was something closed. The two maps were accepted and nobody removed them, except during the confusing period of October-December 2017. I didn't see why exactly you or the Spanish nationalist editors considered this map as "nationalist", but well. Anyway, it seems that virtually nobody was annoyed for the map for a long time, so we'll try to avoid another Byzantine debate about this issue. Regards, --Jacobí (talk) 12:24, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Jacobí: That's what I'm talking about. The fact that they were accepted is evidence that it was done just to appeal to nationalists who wanted things to go their way or else. It's beyond absurd that we have two maps in the infobox and there's no need to show Catalonia as if it were a country. It's not - check Spanish law. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference either way, but I have basically no opinion on Spanish national/regional politics and no particular desire to get one any time soon. There is an argument to be had for consistency's sake. Andalusia, Community of Madrid, Galicia (Spain), and Balearic Islands all feature only the peninsular level, and not continent level maps. This seems in line with other regions, e.g., Bavaria, Lombardy, Normandy. While in comparison, Andorra, Luxembourg, and Wales all feature continent level maps only. GMG^talk 12:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I'm abolutely agree about the Wikipedia's neutral point of view. And that's why I can't see the European map as a "nationalist" or, at least, more than the Spanish one. It's like if we consider the Scottish, Welsh, English or Flemish maps (all of them quasi-identical to the controversial Catalan) as nationalists, simply because it shows the location of this sub-national entities in the European context. I was agree with the map for the reason that it add useful information about the Catalan geopolitical context, if this is some kind of privilege, well, I'm not opposed to the idea to make the same for other autonomous communites. Best regards. --Jacobí (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@GreenMeansGo: Thats a point, Wales. If the criteria of Wikipedia is red -> sub-national, green -> independent, there's no reason to put Wales (or Scotland) as a green territory in Europe. So, what's exactly the criteria? It seeems a little confusing. If the information is neutral and useful, there's no reason to be strict in a flexible issue. --Jacobí (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, but as I believe Wales is technically a nation in a union of nations, and not a sub-national entity which is itself a constituent part of a nation. (I suppose at least temporarily, a nation, in a union of nations, in a union of nations.) Anyway, it doesn't look like we're totally consistent across articles. I notice Iraqi Kurdistan includes both regional and national maps. Somaliland includes only regional and no national map at all. But that may be comparing apples and oranges, where as I understand it, an antonymous region in the context of Spain is a particular, rather than a general political science term. GMG^talk

Actually, Wales and Scotland are nations, and the UK is the State. It's the same with Catalonia, The Basque Country and Galicia and Spain. 49.183.27.126 (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

13:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I'm fine with either map alone (although I'd recommend we choose the first one). The way it's presented now is a bit like a geography lesson. Perhaps we need to write WP:NOTAGEOGRAPHYLESSON, like WP:NOTADICTIONARY? :P Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with Wikipedia giving geographic information and context - that's what Wikipedia is for. You appear to be approaching Wikipedia as a propaganda page for Spanish nationalism/anti-Catalanism (I'm Australian, so I'm looking at this from outside of your biased position).

Both maps should definitely be included. Like Wales, Catalonia is a nation, recognised as such even within the constitution of Spain, and it's history is actually more like that of Scotland, which is even more separate to England than is Wales, so Wikipedia should treat Catalonia like Wales, at the very least.

The legal and political status of Catalonia over Spain is quite different from that of Wales, Scotland, England or Northern Ireland over the United Kingdom. And the history of Catalonia is also quite different from Scotland, since Scotland has always been an independent territory until its union of equals with England to form the United Kingdom in 1707, while Catalonia was an independent county until its union with the Kingdom of Aragon in 1137 forming the Crown of Aragon, being dependent on the King of Aragon. Later this Crown of Aragon joined with the Crown of Castile forming Spain under the Catholic Monarchs in the 15th century, being in 1516 when Spain (Formed by the Crown of Castile and Aragon) was completely united by Charles I of Spain (Charles V of the HRE), considered the first King of Spain. All this info is in the article itself.

So is very different, in every sense, historical, legal and political, both in the past and today. The map of Europe is unnecessary in this article, since it is not present in any other autonomous community of Spain. Venezia Friulano (talk) 10:11, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

North Catalonia

I think the intro should also mention, even if in a second role, that Catalonia is also a cultural figure which spreads through both Spain (the CCCAA) and France (North Catalonia). Otherwise is like turning Kurdistan page into a page for the Irak-administred autonomous region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raicopk (talk • contribs) 12:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

That is the Catalan Countries, which has an article. According to the article, the support for politically unifying that region is weak. Catalonia to the Catalan Countries is as France to the Francosphere. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

That is not the Catalan Countries, which would include areas beyond Catalonia itself as it refers to a linguistic area. Catalonia proper (the territories of the former Principality of Catalonia) includes Northern Catalonia, which since the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659 rests under french sovereignty (see Northern Catalonia). Prrprtll (talk) 10:24, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Poetry?

The initial paragraph...

Catalonia (/ˌkætəˈloʊniə/; Catalan: Catalunya [kətəˈluɲə, kataˈluɲa]; Aranese Occitan: Catalonha [kataˈluɲa];[8] Spanish: Cataluña [kataˈluɲa]) is an autonomous community in the northeastern corner of Spain, laying at the feet of the Pyrenees, designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy.[c][10]

seems to have one reasonable tone *except* for "laying at the feet of the Pyrenees" which seems more poetic than the remainder. Should it be rephrased to seem more encyclopedic?Naraht (talk) 22:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

It was an IP edition. Deleted. --Jotamar (talk) 11:53, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of "Template:Largest cities of Catalonia"

Template:Largest cities of Catalonia has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

A second map comparing it with European countries?

I open this thread to address why this map ([1]) is unnecessary and inappropriate for the Lead.

- First of all, it is a somewhat confusing comparison, because Catalonia is one of the Seventeen "Autonomous Communities" that make up Spain territorially, and yet it gives the feeling of being compared with Sovereign European countries as if Catalonia were an equivalent of them.

- Secondly, there is no article from another Autonomous Community that uses a second map to compare it with the rest of Europe:

• Asturias
• Castille and Leon
• Castilla-La Mancha
• Basque Country
• Navarre
• Cantabria
• Andalusia
• Murcia
• Aragon
• La Rioja
• Galicia
• Valencian Community
• Community of Madrid
• Canary Islands
• Balearic Islands

As you can see, the articles of all the territories of Spain use the single same map within Spain without making comparisons with European countries. The same thing also happens with the rest of the territories and regions of other countries, obviously:

• Trentino-Alto Adige
• Toscana
• Campania
• Thuringia
• Algarve
• Occitania
• Thessaly
• Trøndelag
• Dalarna County
• Lower Austria
• Styria, and a huge etcetera...

- Third, the argument with the comparison with Scotland is invalid. The political (and historical) status of Catalonia in Spain is different from that of Scotland in the United Kingdom, since Scotland, unlike Catalonia, is a Constituent Country of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is a sovereign state made up of countries (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) while Spain is a sovereign state made up of Autonomous Communities, not constituent countries, they are different Political Statuses. Catalonia is one of these Autonomous Communities and it doesn't have any special or different political status with respect to the rest of Spanish territories.

Mainly due to these three reasons, and because potentially violates Wikipedia's neutrality and creates double standards, the map is removed from the Lead. Thanks. Venezia Friulano (talk) 4:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

It is also not reasonable to compare Catalonia with Flanders, since the Communities of Belgium have broader autonomy and are framed in a Federal System, it is not a Unitary System like Spain. In addition, in all the Communities of Belgium (Flemish Community, French Community and German Community) there is uniformity in the style of the map used (there is also uniformity in the use of the maps of the different countries of UK), unlike Spain, in which there is a double standard with Catalonia.

Another reason why I consider that there is a potential violation of the WP:Neutrality is that, although it doesnt show Catalonia as independent, I think that there is a certain interest in distinguishing Catalonia as somewhat "different or unique" from the rest of Spain, when it isn't. The fact that Catalonia is the only Autonomous Community with a second map comparing it with the rest of Europe I think is due the nationalist ideologies that always surround the issue of Catalonia. I don't want to be disrespectful, but I can see an obvious nationalistic motivation in this regard. Venezia Friulano (talk) 12:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I find the second map perhaps unnecessary but not necessarily inappropriate. From a legal point of view Catalonia is like any other autonomous community in Spain, but from other points of view it is not, for example it's one of 2 communities (the other being the Basque Country) where a sizeable part of the population, perhaps even a majority, wants independence from Spain. There's no reason to restrict the page to a legalistic point of view. --Jotamar (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Jotamar; the lack of true independence doesn't change the sentiments that exist in the region. Catalonia is unique from the other autonomous communities in this respect because Catalonia is unique in some important respects. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 03:05, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Catalonia Product Exports (2020).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Lead

@El Caganer, please explain your changes to the lead, short description, and infobox of this article, and why they are an improvement over the previous version. A.D.Hope (talk) 01:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It is more than proven that Catalonia is a historic European nation. A nation is a large type of social organization where a collective identity, a national identity, has emerged from a combination of shared features across a given population, such as language, history, ethnicity, culture, territory or society.

See what means in the Cambridge dictionary about Nation: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nation

Catalonia is clearly a historical european nation (different traditions, cuisine, language, identity, aspirational freedoms..) El Caganer (talk) 03:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree with ElCaganer. The Penfield Homunculus (talk) 04:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@The Penfield Homunculus and El Caganer: This is totally insufficient grounds, and is merely your own personal opinion, which is not sufficient grounds for inclusion of your content. Wikipedia's WP:Verifiability policy is clear:

All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports^[a] the material. Any material that needs an inline citation but does not have one may be removed.

This is a formal challenge: source the assertions recently re-added to the article for the third or fourth time that Catalonia "is a European nation" by adding a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the assertion or it will be removed per policy. Mathglot (talk) 05:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

TWELVE SOURCES DEFENDING CATALONIA AS A HISTORICAL EUROPEAN NATION:

1. Official source (Catalan Ministry for foreign action and European Union): "Catalonia is a nation that has over a thousand years of history" — https://exteriors.gencat.cat/en/ambits-dactuacio/afers_exteriors/delegacions_govern/welcome-to-catalonia/

2. The Wall Street Jounal: 'Catalonia Is a Nation' by Pascual Maragall — https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113252539645302500

3. Book (Catalunya, One nation, two states) — https://pol-len.cat/llibres/catalunya-one-nation-two-states/

4. Book (Catalonia. Nation building without a state) by Kenneth McRoberts

5. Document: An example of the National History of a Stateless European Nation: Catalonia — https://fundaciobofill.cat/uploads/docs/m/q/t/pm5-0662_0.pdf

6. Financial Times by Pere Aragonès (current president of Catalonia):

Catalonia is a European nation, open to the world, and committed to addressing global challenges. A nation with a rich historical legacy, diverse and modern, bound by its language, Catalan. A nation with a persistent desire for self-governance dating back centuries. A nation that wants to be free, that wants to be able to democratically and peacefully decide how it governs itself. A nation where a significant number of its citizens, including myself, want to create a new state, independent of Spain, but working together with it within the European framework. — https://www.ft.com/content/7931e7a9-9169-495a-8f64-3190bfffdff3

7. Doctoral Thesis — Nationalism, National Identity and Territory. The Case of Catalonia — https://www.tdx.cat/handle/10803/5076#page=1

8. Assamblea Nacional de Catalunya (History and foundation of Catalonia): "An old nation since the 9th century" — https://int.assemblea.cat/fr/about-catalonia/history/

9. Smithsonian Magazine: "Will Catalan Elections Allow an Old Nation to Become a New State In Europe??" — https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/will-catalan-elections-allow-old-nation-become-new-state-europe-180956741/

10. ARA Editions: "What in medieval times was a powerful nation which extended its influence across and beyond the Mediterranean, is now an autonomous region within the Spanish State posessing restricted powers, devolved as seen fit by the central state. It has its own language, Catalan, and institutions, amongst them one of Europe's oldest Governments and Parliaments". — https://www.ara.cat/especials/catalan-way-catalonia-independence_1_2237291.amp.html

11. Historian (J.Maria Ainaud de Lasarte) document: "Catalonia, a thousand-year-old nation, that has wanted to live in peace with al1 others." — https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Catalonia/article/download/105103/160455

12. Barcelona City House: "Catalonia, home to a thousand-year-old nation, has a wealth of traditional festivals." — https://www.barcelona.cat/culturapopular/en/cases-de-la-festa/what-are-festival-activities-centres/festival-people

El Caganer (talk) 07:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Twelve sources El Caganer (talk) 07:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Worth pointing out that as the first source is WP:PRIMARY it's not suitable for this kind of definition. — Czello ^(music) 12:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

And the other 11 sources? If you want I can add 30 more. El Caganer (talk) 13:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no commentary on those and have no horse in this race – just pointing out that one isn't usable. — Czello ^(music) 14:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd point out that both the FT and Wall Street Journal articles are opinion pieces from Catalonians, and therefore may not be independent? Davidstewartharvey (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, opinion pieces should be avoided for a subject as contentious as this. — Czello ^(music) 21:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m in concordance with @BCNViki: That Catalonia is a historical European nation is not debatable, it is a fact (There are infinite sources). And that it is currently an autonomous community in the Spanish kingdom is not debatable either, it is a fact. And it is important to give this dual description to provide context to the article’s reader. 4 users are (for the moment) agree with mantain the short description with the autonomous community actual status but in the lead of the page: a historical European nation administrated currently as an autonomous community and as a nationallity by its statute. El Caganer (talk) 21:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello. Just informing other editors here that El Caganer has been canvassing by posting messages on the talk pages of other editors by choice (1 and 2). This is not the way to gain consensus on Wikipedia. StephenMacky1 (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I have made my position very clear in favor of defining Catalonia as a European historical nation and I have been the only user to provide specific references. I'm tired of the accusations of trying to influence in this Talk page. In fact, you will do whatever you want. My opinion doesn't matter. It only matters that out of 12 references, 3 are not relevant or from my influences towards other users. I will not contribute further to this debate. Edit and change what you want. El Caganer (talk) 08:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The first change of the lead to prioritise "nation" was made in this edit on 13 March 2024, with no clear indication of consensus aside constant reverts backing up the recent change. DankJae 11:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Notified WP:CATALONIA, WP:SPAIN, WP:CATALAN and WP:GEOG. DankJae 11:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Coming off that notification, this article is about Catalonia the political unit that is currently an autonomous region of Spain. There are of course other meanings to the word Catalonia, and they should be covered elsewhere. CMD (talk) 11:17, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello editors, reviewing the Catalonia page I have seen that there is currently a discussion about what definition of Catalonia should be on the lead page. The fact that Catalonia is a historic European nation is undeniable. I have been able to see several references and it is like that. I think we should maintain the definition of a historical European nation, in fact most users agree with this. Synalepha (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, a few weeks ago I checked this page and the definition of historic European nation has been deleted. I just read this section and all the comments in it and I agree with keeping the definition as it was. It is a proven fact and should be maintained in the main definition. I vote for mantein: Catalonia is a historical european nation now administrated as an autonomous community of Spain. 79.153.9.62 (talk) 11:52, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Why the lead has deleted? it was perfect as it was... Catalonia is a historical european nation. how many sections have this theme? major of users are in favour to catalonia as a hstorical european nation. 93.191.139.160 (talk) 14:27, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Many such users were blocked as all being the same person. DankJae 15:06, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

European nation, or autonomous community

There has been edit-warring in the lead on how to describe Catalonia, namely as a European nation, or an autonomous community, and it has to stop. (Secondarily, there has been some disagreement about the terms country vs. sovereign state.) This page is the place to discuss content disagreements about this article. In adding comments below, please consider Wikipedia's core policy of verifiability and the dependence of content on published reliable, independent, secondary sources, which in preference should be in English.

It is already clear there is a disagreement, so there is no point in merely adding a comment in order to say, "This one is better" or "I like that one better"; that is meaningless and will not lead to consensus. Instead, show how your preferred wording better complies with Wikipedia policy and guidelines, in particular Verifiability and WP:DUEWEIGHT. That is the only thing that counts, and not our own particular opinions on the topic. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Looking at the evidence, Catalonia, or to be precise the Principality of Catalonia was a nation (Barcelona was a separate kingdom). Based upon that the lead is not totally inaccurate, but just needs a rejigging " is an administered autonomous community of Spain, designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy, and historically has been a European nation."Davidstewartharvey (talk) 12:05, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think something along those lines is the easiest solution. The short description and infobox should remain as they are, as they reflect Catalonia's current status. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have provided more than 10 sources demonstrating that Catalonia is a historic European nation. Perhaps the short description should reflect the current state but the definition on the page should remain as a historical European nation. El Caganer (talk) 12:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree that the main definition of Catalonia should be as an 'historical European nation'. Its current status should take precedence. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  The definition I propose is fully compatible with your argument and proven. That Catalonia is a historic European nation is true and you can see the multitude of articles I have contributed. The phrase says that this historic European nation is currently administered as an autonomous community within Spain. El Caganer (talk) 17:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Catalonia's historic status is mentioned in the second and third paragraphs of the lead, so I'm not sure it needs to also be mentioned in the first paragraph. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  In the short description I’m agree with you (spanish autonomous comunity). But in the lead: Historic european nation administrated by autonmous comunity. El Caganer (talk) 19:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's enough to state that Catalonia is an autonomous community in the lead paragraph, as that is its current status. Its historic status is covered later in the lead. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  I am open to having "nation" be after the autonomous community, similar to what Davidstewartharvey suggested. As long as there is a discussion and consensus for it, than what occurred prior. Although many of the proponents are now blocked? While the sources provided by them aren't all independent, usually from Catalan politicians/political sources, and a thesis? What do international sources say? Are there other sources that say they're a nation now? Because we probably should give less weight to something in the first sentence that is "historical", compared to its contemporary status. DankJae 20:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with this description. That Catalonia is a historical European nation is not debatable, it is a fact. And that it is currently an autonomous community in the Spanish kingdom is not debatable either, it is a fact. And it is important to give this dual description to provide context to the article’s reader. BCNViki (talk) 19:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  Please note: this user BCNViki was very explicitly canvassed to come here and even given exact instructions on what to say by El Caganer. Fred Zepelin (talk) 02:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  “Canvassed” and “given instructions”? Not at all. I find offensive that you presume I don't have a voice of my own. Please apologize. I was merely notified that this discussion was going on, and I contributed my perspective. Comments like yours make forums tiresome. BCNViki (talk) 09:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'm sure you do have a voice of your own, but you were canvassed here. — Czello ^(music) 12:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I said nothing about your behavior, BCNViki. I didn't say that you followed the instructions or anything about your voice. The El Caganer account has been blocked for sockpuppetry, and my comments were entirely about that socking and canvassing user. Their behavior is the problem, not yours. Hope that clears it up. Fred Zepelin (talk) 17:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello editors, reviewing the Catalonia page I have seen that there is currently a discussion about what definition of Catalonia should be on the lead page. The fact that Catalonia is a historic European nation is undeniable. I have been able to see several references and it is like that. I think we should maintain the definition of a historical European nation, in fact most users agree with this. Synalepha (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Catalonia's historic status is already covered in the lead. Why should it take precedence over its current status in the lead paragraph? A.D.Hope (talk) 10:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Echoing my comment above as discussion seems to have moved here, this conversation is backwards in taking a name and then trying to build the article around it. The discussion is not what to define "Catalonia" as, but what the article is about. In this case, it is about the current polity. CMD (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, a few weeks ago I checked this page and the definition of historic European nation has been deleted. I just read this section and all the comments in it and I agree with keeping the definition as it was. It is a proven fact and should be maintained in the main definition. I vote for mantein: Catalonia is a historical european nation now administrated as an autonomous community of Spain. 79.153.9.62 (talk) 11:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Why the lead has deleted? it was perfect as it was... Catalonia is a historical european nation. user elcaganer demontrate with a lot of sources. i will revert. i don't see nobody with contrarious reasons.. 93.191.139.160 (talk) 14:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

And I reverted that, it is being discussed here. DankJae 15:06, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The IP 93.191.139.160 is likely the same editor as "user elcaganer" that they've praised here, and both are socks of ThePenfieldHomunculus. Fred Zepelin (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I often struggle with the use of ill defined, ambiguous terms - such as nation (and ethnic group). In my experience nation is sometimes used to indicate an (independent) country but sometimes also as a group of people identifying themselves along shared culture and heritage (ethnic group) an example are the Canadian First Nations. And all mixes of these two. In general it appears that the idea of nation state is relatively recent, in most cases 19th century, although some arguments extend to early modernity. From the above it is not clear to me what specific definition is referred to in this discussion.

• If we want to consider Catalonia a historical nation-state, the existence of principality may be an indication - but that only proves the claim it was a state, requiring additional evidence of a nation. That state no longer exists so it is merely historical.
• If we want to consider the Catalonians a nation the previous existence of the principality is not really relevant as past ownership of lands and people have little to do with how people identify.

So my first question to untangle this would be to define the usage of the term Nation unambiguously. If we don't I am afraid we will get stuck in a discussion that can never be resolved as the ambiguous definition makes it impossible to agree and to disagree at the same time. (To be frank I think it might prove impossible to find such a clear definition, in which case the only way out may be to remove the term nation from the article). Arnoutf (talk) 16:57, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The addition of historical and/or European as qualifiers reads as a bonafide slogan. The entire lead section should be trimmed down of historical details (also displaying some needless pov-related fixations, in addition to an also overlong recentist last paragraph about recent developments and the ubiquitous bad practice of namedropping individual names). Visibilization of the consolidated national identity of Catalans could be augmented in the lead and/or be framed in different terms, but I do not see a point in pulling the quite clunky proposal above involving the opening statement.--Asqueladd (talk) 18:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, the last four paragraphs should be compressed into one. The body's history section suffers similarly. CMD (talk) 10:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

• Coming here off the WikiProject notifications. I think that Catalan is officially a nationality and Catalonia an autonomous region of Spain (perhaps throwing in something about "disputed" because you know) should be prioritised over saying that, historically, Catalonia has had nation status; the current facts before history to not confuse people and I think it's kind of common sense. If we're going into history, for example, how much do we cover? Aragon, prehistory... the present first. Endorse Davidstewartharvey summary up top of this section, too. Kingsif (talk) 23:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Socks in this discussion

With the exception of BCNViki (who was canvassed here by a sock account), the comments above supporting the recent attempt to change the lead to "a historical European nation" are all socks of ThePenfieldHomunculus. This includes El Caganer, Synalepha (both of which are already blocked) and a smattering of IPs that have cropped up since the blocks. I see no point in replying to that one editor anymore; the lead should stay in the long-stable condition that it was before they arrived. Fred Zepelin (talk) 17:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of "Lead" discussion

As has been stated by Fred Zepelin, this discussion to change Catalonia to a historical European Nation is a bunch of sockpuppets of The Penfield Homunculus. Furthermore, it has a major disputed topic that resulted in edit wars to keep WP:NPOV active in the article, which The Penfield Homunculus cared very little for as an extreme Catalan independence activist. The article already states in its own way indirectly with both history, and just in general that Catalonia used to be a nation, it has no reason to be centered when the idea was started by a banned user to put it more boldly. Panenkazo, 93.191.139.160, El Caganer, A Crocodile in Bed, Synalepha, etc, most, if not ALL who supported this idea have been shown to be The Penfield Homunculus using alternative accounts. - SnowieLuna1212 (talk) 23:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Mistake warning

In the article about Catalonia there is a big mistake. In 1714 Catalonia was not supporting Philip V Borbon but the Archiduke of Austria as a candidate to be its king. Once defeated the Catalonian troops by the Castilian and French army is when Philip V rules in Catalonia and suspend its selfgovernment and political institutions Albertvankuir (talk) 19:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Where does it state that? What I read is the Crown of Aragon sided against the Bourbon Philip V of Spain. --Jotamar (talk) 22:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

A Review/Comment

I am not sure if the discussion above is still relevant (RE "European nation"), given some of the, what appears to be, misbehavior, but looking over that discussion and the article, I had a few thoughts. We must always keep in mind the principal purpose of an article, and in this case its purpose is to tell readers, presumably English-speakers who know nothing of Catalonia, the what Catalonia is, its present state. The article has two major problems in this regard: the lead is overburdened by an extensive discussion of history, and the article's section on history is overly detailed and lengthy. There exists a separate article on the History of Catalonia for that.

The arguments above remind me of the use of "labels" for things and people, which can be a delicate issue to resolve (though it isn't really). We recently wrote an essay Wikipedia: Crime labels on labels; Wikipedia has endless and lengthy arguments over labels. The main problem with any label it is overly brief, ambiguous, and poorly/inconsistently defined - hence readers (and Wikipedia arguers) will not ever interpret or understand labels in a reliable way (hence the endless Wikipedian arguments over them). As we conclude in the aforementioned Essay, far better to forego the label in the lead, and just include a brief, accurate description of what you want to say.

I recommend that the excessive history in the lead and in the history sections be greatly condensed for one; the History of Catalonia article is excellent for readers interested in history. This article should rely on it. The article's history section perhaps should be moved to later in the article.

On the fractious subject of Catalan nationality, it would be entirely appropriate to highlight the major role the historical Catalan nation played in European history (briefly) in a later paragraph of the lead. (I keep contemplating how Venice is famous as a major power from 1100-1400 in the eastern Mediterranean, say, while Catalonia was equally powerful at the same time in the west, which is mostly unknown to people these days!) Also appropriate to include a (brief) paragraph on the much-disputed question of present-day Catalan independence, a subject that is much in the news; emphasizing that the issue is not new. All that being said, it would be better for the lead to focus on present-day facts about Catalonia - geography, demographics, government type, languages, economy, agriculture (wine production), industry, precise relation with Spain, culture, sports (barça), etc. The article already discusses all of those things...not so much the lead. Bdushaw (talk) 14:54, 25 December 2024 (UTC)